Sai Blackbyrn: Let’s do it.

John: Sai is an entrepreneur and speaker. Coming from a family of coaches, it’s no surprise he turned out to be one himself. He’s the founder and CEO of Double Your Database, a company which actively assists coaches from around the world in building their respective coaching businesses online. All right Sai, take a minute, fill in some gaps from that intro, and give us a little glimpse into your personal life.

Sai Blackbyrn: Sure. Well as you said, John, I am from a serial family of coaches. My mom is a coach, my dad has been a coach, my cousins are a coach, my dog is getting his coach certification, and it was just inevitable that I would end up in personal growth. I’ve been surrounded with it since I was 12 years old. So along with Double Your Database, which trains coaches on how to build up their own coaching business, I originally started as a coach in a company called Get the Girlfriend. And this is a company which trains men on how to find the women of their dreams. And I pivoted off that when I realized how it is that the same principles that can govern a dating coach can actually work for any type of coach if you tweak them correctly. So fortunately right now I’m able, I’ve set up the company so that I can work from anywhere in the world using a computer and a microphone. I also teach other coaches how to do that themselves. I’ve lived in 12 different countries over the past few years, pretty regularly invited to speak wherever I am, and I really speak to coaches on how to turn their coaching into that same inspirational business. So, right now actually planning on moving out of Southeast Asia, been in Indonesia for the last few years, and back to Europe to Berlin.

And lastly, I think this is going to be the most valuable thing I share on this interview, I just got engaged last month.

John: Oh congrats.

Sai Blackbyrn: Well, I’m saying that because she said yes, so I thank god every day that she said yes.

John: Awesome Sai. Well we’re excited to dive into more of your journey, because you’ve got a lot of cool things going on. I mean, you are a man with a laptop and a microphone, location independent, financially independent, and now you are dependent on a love of your life, I guess we could say, so congratulations for that. And you could go a lot of directions with this next question, because you do a lot of things, but if someone would walk up to you in Chiang Mai and they said, “Hey, what exactly do you do, Sai?” How would you respond in 10 seconds?

Sai Blackbyrn: I would say I train coaches on how to build up their business online, wherever they are in the world, using a computer and a microphone.

John: And I think a lot of people would say, “Sign me up for that,” because it sounds like a pretty good life. But what I want to do Sai is really get into the dollars, the cents, because we’re entrepreneurs. We have expenses, we have bills, and we have to figure out how to get those first few dollars in the door, which is never easy. So how are you, today, specifically generating revenue?

Sai Blackbyrn: So let me tell you in regards to one of my main focuses, which is Double Your Database. So I personally take on very few one on ones, but right now I have a coaching program which is invitation only. It’s called The Elite Coach’s Mastermind, and the way that we have tweaked this program is a large portion of what our clients pay only comes from the success of our students, so it makes it very appealing. When somebody signs up, they know that the vast majority of the payment plan only comes about when they start succeeding. And so the way that we fill it up, we have our own database of people which we have nurtured over the years. We also use things like Facebook ads, Google ads, which I’ll be talking a little bit about later on, and we drive traffic to these programs and give people the opportunity to sign up if they feel it's a good fit for them.

John: Now what I’m really fascinated with is it doesn’t sound like it’s a revenue share program, but it’s kind of like a success pay program where your clients are only actually paying money or the significant portion of it if they’re actually, is it generating revenue themselves or finding success in what they’re being taught? How exactly does that work?

Sai Blackbyrn: That’s a great question, and it comes down to if they’re generating revenue themselves.

John: Oh revenue. So they have to be generating revenue in order for you to really be maximizing the revenue that you’re charging them.

Sai Blackbyrn: Exactly. And it kind of, the idea stemmed from, well everybody else in my industry, what they’re doing is they are just charging everything up front and crossing their fingers, hoping their students end up achieving what it is that they’re meant to achieve, but really they don’t have any skin in the game, and so what I found out is when I started off, I’m a small fry, nobody knew me, so I had to differentiate what it is I was doing. So I could go down the same route as everyone else, but I thought, “Well what if we get some skin in the game here? How is that going to affect our clients’ perception of us?” And very fortunately, they viewed that as a complete game changer, that here is somebody that’s willing to go on the journey with them. So that was how Double Your Database really started to get into the big leagues when it came to that whole section on coaching coaches.

John: So now it really comes on you as the coach to make sure that you’re pre-qualifying the people that you’re bringing into your system because you just can’t bring on a non-action taker just because they're going to pay whatever your quoted prices is. You need to be bringing people on who are inspired; who are passionate, that you think truly is going to succeed, because otherwise if they don’t succeed, you don’t succeed.

Sai Blackbyrn: That’s very true, and I feel that most coaches, right, what we want is we want winners. We want people that come to us that have it in them that they are going to win. And unfortunately we’re kind of placed in a situation where we have to take a lot of people on because we’re just not making any revenue, and what I found was there are certain people that I won’t be able to help. These are people that make a lot of excuses, that have a lot of internal issues, that don’t really want to take their own lives and their own businesses on. But the ones that do, when they see an offer like the one that we have where we charge based on success, what happens is those winners are drawn to us. Now obviously we get a lot of people that come to us and say, “Can you sign me up for the program?” They think they’re winners, but when some of our guys start speaking to them, we realize that they’re not winners, they’re procrastinators, they’re not going to do what it takes, etc. etc. So we have to be very selective over who we take on, but the fortunate thing about that is it means that we take on a lot of winners which means that the testimonials we get are great, because these guys actually are going to take action on what it is that we teach them. So it has a big follow on effect other than sales as well.

We get a lot of testimonials, a lot of positive testimonials, because we have a bunch of action takers which end up on our programs.

John: And taking action is 90 percent of the battle for our nation and that’s why I love this system, I love this setup. It really creates that win win win environment all the way around. And Sai, you've had some great success in the past couple of years, but you’re an entrepreneur. You’ve had some great failures too, and that’s what I want you to focus on first, and I know you have a pretty intense one. So take us to your worst entrepreneurial moment to date and really tell us that story.

Sai Blackbyrn: I love sharing this story and hate sharing it at the same time.

John: Oo, those are my favorite.

Sai Blackbyrn: Well it brings me right back to that place. So there’ve been quite a few but one, John, that really sticks out for me, I remember a few years ago I had been given $100,000.00 to take my idea of a dating coach out to Australia, and back in those days, I’m sure you’ll be asking this a little bit later on, but back in those days I was very very arrogant as an entrepreneur, as a coach. I didn’t want to learn anything about sales and marketing. To me those were really dirty words. So when I created this company in Australia with $100,000.00, I thought salvation, hallelujah, people are going to come in and take on the sales and marketing role which I don’t want to take. And pretty soon you realize as an entrepreneur that just doesn’t happen. So that $100,000.00 quickly turned into $20,000.00 which quickly turned into minus, and pretty soon, over the course of about five months, we had spent that $100,000.00, and only got about $20,000.00 in return, and we were heading for a brick wall.

We were about to shut down. So I convinced my business partners, “Well why don’t we just set up a high end workshop in Bali where we take on a few clients, really inspire them, and then come back and re-analyze what it is we’re doing.” So we went to Bali, did this workshop, had a few of our old clients come in, I think it was about seven or eight of them, all paying a couple of grand each, so it did pretty well in comparison to everything we’d been doing before. But I get back from Bali and I’m super pumped man. I am ready to hit the floor running, but I get stopped at immigration. And this is a bizarre concept, because I’m an English citizen. We never get stopped at immigration. But I get stopped at immigration, they ask me, “Sai, why are you in Australia? What are you doing in Australia? I can see you’ve got about 15 different stamps going in and out. Why are you here?”

And I said, “Well, I run a business here.” And they said, “Well, are you earning money from that business?” And I thought, “What a bizarre question. Of course. May not be a lot of money, but at least I’m earning something.” I said, “Yeah, I am,” and they said, “You know you’re not allowed to.” And I looked at her in disbelief and said, “Well, I’m on a business visa,” and she said, “No, you’re on an exploratory business visa.” Those three syllables, exploratory business visa, completely changed my life, because she told me then and there that I was not allowed to earn money in the country. She took me into a room and I tell you man, it was like a windowless room, completely mirrored from top to bottom, two chairs and a table and a little telephone in between, and I’m sitting there thinking, “What am I doing here?” I mean, you can tell how arrogant I was at the time. “What am I doing here? I’m here about to, I’m here out in my mission to really make a difference in the world, and I’m stuck in immigration.”

But you know at the time I thought, “This is just a big joke. I’m going to leave this and tell my friends about the time that I almost got kicked out of Australia. They’re all going to laugh about it and we’re just going to continue along our time.” So for three hours she goes and interrogates me back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and finally she comes in the room and she does a final interview, and I thought that I nailed it. I thought, “This is it. There’s no way she’s going to let me go.” I start going into all the reasons I should be in Australia, how I’m going to provide employment, how I’m going to better the social system, blah blah blah blah blah. She comes in after 20 minutes of being away, and she looks at me, and I can’t tell what she’s thinking. You know when you look at someone and they’re kind of poker faced and you’re just not sure what’s going on in their mind. She has these papers in her left hand, she puts them on the table, and she says to me, these are the words that I will never forget for the rest of my life, she says to me, “Under section 116B of the Australian Immigration Act, we have decided to revoke your visa and ban you for three years effective immediately.”

John: Three years?

Sai Blackbyrn: And let me tell you, when they ban you effective immediately, not only do you lose the fact that you can enter the country, but I lost all of my possessions, I lost everything that I didn’t have on me, everything that wasn’t in my suitcase, all of my bank accounts were cut, I was left with about $314.00. I counted it out before I left, all of my friends were gone, and I couldn’t explain that to anybody. I couldn’t let anyone know that I was not allowed back in the country. All of the employees, everyone that we had in the business, had no idea. She said, “Sai, here are your choices. You can either buy a plane ticket and leave immediately, or you’re going to be in a detention center until you can afford to buy a ticket.” Now I had $312.00, and if you’ve ever been to Australia, flight tickets out of that place are not the cheapest, so there wasn’t a lot I could do. So I got shipped into a detention center and I was stuck there, and I the detention I thought, “You know what?” To be honest, John, it really wasn’t that bad, the detention center.

John: It’s like Club Med detention.

Sai Blackbyrn: Actually it was. It had a basketball court, it had a gym, it even had a PlayStation, it had unlimited Ramen noodles, which is always good.

John: You’re like, “I’m never leaving.”

Sai Blackbyrn: Exactly, never leaving, and believe it or not they actually had an internet place where I could speak on Skype. So I got on Skype and I just could not believe what happened, but I knew that I needed to get out of this detention center as soon as possible. So I end up picking everyone on Skype and finally I managed to get my old investor on who originally gave me the $100,000.00. I explained to him what happened, he was furious, but I told him, “Unless I get a plane ticket out of here, I’m going to be stuck in this detention center, and there are some people here that have been here for nine months.” It was crazy. Really was. Some people that had PhDs but they were just refugees that had been there, and it was surreal. But I convinced him to get me a plane ticket out, and from that moment I was stuck in Bali with a computer with $312.00 and a microphone. To this day, actually John, I’m still speaking to you using this microphone, the world’s best investment, I tell you. But it was at that moment that for me, I felt completely helpless. There’s very few times where you think there’s nothing that you can do, and that was one of them.

John: That’s quite a story. That is quite a story where you think that everything is going for you, you’re on top of the world, you’re untouchable, as you said, you were very arrogant about your situation, and then with one fell swoop, everything is taken away and it’s just like, “I have $314.00 and I’m in detention, basically. Club Med detention, but I’m still in detention.” I mean, insane, and that’s why you always, always need to hope for the best but plan for the worst, because you never ever know when that worst is going to become a reality. So Sai, there’s a lot of lessons I’m sure you learned from that, a lot a lot. What’s the one that you really want to make sure that Fire Nation gets from that story?

Sai Blackbyrn: Well that story itself, I want to tell you that fortunately it turned itself around. Not without effort from me, but it really turned itself around. I wouldn’t be where I am if it wasn’t for that situation. It was because of that situation, as you said John, it humbles you. It gets rid of all the excuses, all of the arrogance, all of the, “I don’t want to know about sales and marketing.” So for me, one of the biggest aha moments, which I feel is going to be really valuable because it massively changed around my business was, when I was stuck in Bali, I really had no money. I had no ability to make money, because all I had was my computer and my microphone. So I ended up speaking to a friend of mine who later became a mentor, a guy called Adam Davies, and he gave me some truly truly great advice. I told him that this was my situation. He said, “Well, listen, you have all the resources you need. You have $312.00. Why not create a Facebook ad campaign?” And to me, at the time, I thought that was suicide. Like, why would anyone go into ads? It’s gambling, but he told me basically how to do it, how to build up clients, how to create a client base using Facebook ads, and I thought, “Well, why not? I’m very lucky to be in Bali of all places, which is pretty cheap to live. I could probably live for two weeks before I’d have to look for any other means of getting money. Why not just invest a little bit of that money in Facebook ads?”

So I created a strategy with Adam Davies’s help which I can tell you a little bit about later on, and I implemented this strategy just using Facebook ads. And what was surreal was in the course of 30 days, my entire business completely turned around. Right? That $312.00, $314.00, switched into five figures in 30 days, and all of a sudden I had no issues paying rent, all of a sudden I could travel, all of a sudden I could work anywhere without having to worry about my situation, without having to look in the bank, just everything completely changed. And so what I would say is the biggest aha moment would be don’t be afraid to use advertising. Don’t be afraid to use Facebook ads. As long as you’ve got proper guidance on how to use them and proper guidance in terms of the strategy to implement, they are very powerful. It’s just about knowing exactly how to implement them.

John: And there’s proper guidance out there, Fire Nation. I mean you have Rick Moretti of FB Advantage, you have John Lumar who’s always giving great advice, and there’s other people that Sai is going to mention I’m sure that are really providing great Facebook ad information and just ad information in general. It’s out there; it’s just a matter of you consuming it as an actual entrepreneur. And Sai, break down what you consider your number one weakness as an entrepreneur in one sentence.

Sai Blackbyrn: From this story, you would have already gathered, I can be a little bit reckless. Sometimes I get too excited to do things, too excited to launch certain things, and I don’t think it through properly. So it’s just one thing I’ve noticed that in my personality. I remember when I was in my early 20s and one of the things that I wanted to do was get over social anxiety. So I thought, what would be a great way to do that would be to do one of these public pranks which, you know, are going around YouTube at the moment. And I did it with a friend, and in his case, he decided to have Tourette’s, so he decided to go into a public place and just start screaming his head off. And he said, “Okay Sai, well why don’t you do the same? It’s really going to get you over that social anxiety.” And I thought, “All right, great, let’s do it.” He said, “Okay, so I want you to go into a public place and I want you to scream, ‘I’ve got a bum,’ really really loud.” Now I thought that was a great idea to get over my public shyness, but what I didn’t realize is here I am a brown man with four days of razor stubble and a duffel bag saying that I have a bum.

So when I screamed this out, the crowd circled, and I realized this is the stupidest thing I’ve ever done in my life.

John: I would have scattered. They circled around you?

Sai Blackbyrn: It was just, it was one time, I screamed it out, and then everyone circled around, and I realized, oh my god, stupidest thing you’ve ever done, Sai, run away right now. And I just noticed that that is a big weakness of mine, is I can be a little bit reckless in terms of what I think will be a great idea, and actually what is a great idea.

John: And another one of your weaknesses is you don’t listen to direction, so this time, in one sentence, what is your biggest strength.

Sai Blackbyrn: My biggest strength is relentlessness. I never give in to something I’m committed to.

John: Nothing more important as an entrepreneur. Perseverance, persistence, be relentless, Fire Nation. So Sai, what is the one thing that you are most fired up about today?

Sai Blackbyrn: I recently, I managed to create a project with an old mentor of mine, a guy called Jay Abraham. Very very well-known marketer, and he and I are doing a project together, and I’m very excited to see it launch.

John: Can we hear more about it?

Sai Blackbyrn: Yeah. So Jay Abraham, with someone like that, he’s a very very busy guy, and when I approached him, I approached him with the idea of taking one of his old classic works, Mister X, digitizing it, making it into an audio book, and re-releasing it into today’s environment, because that has a potential to be a Think and Grow Rich, like one of the classics when it comes to marketing. But because he’s so busy, he ignores it, and I feel that’s the case with a lot of very powerful people is they don’t look into their classic work. So with Jay, we’re re-working Mister X, and it’s going to be released within the next few months, and I’m very excited about that.

John: Nice. And where will we be able to learn more about that?

Sai Blackbyrn: Well he’ll be releasing it out to his list alone, so if you sign up to his mailing list, if you go to jayabraham.com, I’m sure he’ll let you know the moment it gets released.

John: Awesome. Well Fire Nation, we’re about to enter the lightning round, but before we do, let’s take a minute to thank our sponsors. Sai, are you prepared for the lightning round?

Sai Blackbyrn: I’m excited. Let’s do it.

John: What was holding you back from becoming an entrepreneur?

Sai Blackbyrn: For the most part, it was arrogance. I did not want to learn how to market; I did not want to learn how to sell myself powerfully. I wanted somebody else to do it.

John: What is the best advice you’ve ever received?

Sai Blackbyrn: There’s a guy called Dan Priestley, and I believe he was mentioned on a couple of other podcasts of yours. He said that most coaches, most people, they focus on cheap and mass production, and it becomes very hard to generate a really good income, especially as a coach, because you spend way too much money on ads in order to get only a little bit in coaching clients. So he told me to focus on the high end client first, as a way to generate money, and then focus on lower ended, cheaper clients after that.

John: Brilliant. What’s a personal habit that contributes to your success?

Sai Blackbyrn: So I’m a great believer in daily rituals, which means in the first 60 minutes in your day, to do something which determines the rest of your day. So for me I meditate in the morning and I do a daily written gratitude journal of all the things which I’m personally very grateful for.

John: What’s an internet resource, like an Evernote, that you can share with our listeners?

Sai Blackbyrn: Well this one I was thinking about before you asked it and I’m a bit nervous because it’s actually revealing the keys to my kingdom here, but I have a lot of very very high quality materials which I offer, and most people think I have an entire production team. I don’t. I have one designer. And the website I use is called envato.com, and they will be able to give you amazing, like very high quality production materials, at a fraction of the cost, and you can have one designer and create something which looks like you have a team. So it’s truly awesome, enveto.com.

John: And what would be an example of what they would do?

Sai Blackbyrn: If you’ve ever seen any of the intro videos from any of the top people, let’s say Marie Folio, and you look at their intro video and you think, “Wow, they must have a huge design team to do that,” nope. Enveto.com provides them the background to do that, all you have to do is get somebody to implement it slightly. It will cost you about $10.00 to create something as high quality as, let’s say, Marie Folio’s intro.

John: So kind of walk us through, what would the steps look like for someone from scratch to make that happen, say a video intro?

Sai Blackbyrn: So what you would do is you’d go to elance.com, you’d obviously find a designer if you don’t already have one, post a job for a designer. I would recommend that you get people from Serbia. They’re just generally very very good at design and the costs they give you are pretty good as well. What I would do then is just go to Enveto and go to Video Hive, which is a tab on Enveto, and what you’ll do is you’ll have a list of all these different intros, which you can use. So intros which are more minimalistic, intros which are more flashy, intros which are more modern, more classic, and then they will give you sample intros of those. So once you’ve found the right one, just select it, give it to your designer, and say, “Listen, these are the words I want it to have.” Right? So instead of having enveto.com on the intro, it’ll have Double Your Database or Get the Girlfriend.

But your designer will still use the same style of intro, but just replace the wording with your own. So it’ll look as if you’ve had a design team create it when actually it was a template from Enveto.

John: Man. Now that is an internet resource, Fire Nation, that you can and should be taking advantage of. Now if you could just recommend one book, Sai, for our listeners, what would it be and why?

Sai Blackbyrn: So the book which made the biggest difference to me was The 48 Laws of Power, and this is by Robert Green. So halfway through my whole journey, what I realized was that relationships you create and maintain with people are going to be the most powerful aspect of your business when it comes to scaling and growing. And what The 48 Laws of Power does is it shows you exactly how to create very powerful relationships with high level people. And I used that book to create my relationship with Jay Abraham; I used that book to create my relationship with Adam Davies, the guy that told me about Facebook ads originally. It’s an amazing resource when it comes to creating relationships with people which are very high value, and normally unobtainable to get.

John: In Fire Nation episode 134, you can listen to me interviewing Robert Green, and he is great as a guest, and I love all of his books actually. They’re just all phenomenal. Mastery, The 50th Law With 50 Cents, there’s just a lot of great ones. And Fire Nation, I know you love audio, so I teamed up with audio books, and if you haven’t already you can get an amazing audiobook for free at eofirebook.com. And Sai, this is the last question of the lightning round, but it’s a doozy. Imagine you woke up tomorrow morning in a brand new world identical to Earth, but you knew no one. You still have all the experience and knowledge you currently have, your food and shelter are taken care of, but all you have is a laptop and $500.00. What would you do in the next seven days?

Sai Blackbyrn: I guess I already did that, right? With $314.00.

John: Yeah, you even have it better off by $200.00 here.

Sai Blackbyrn: Yeah, so let me tell you what I did, and this should be of high value. So first thing first is, I would find an internet café with a Wi-Fi connection, and I would go to leadpages.net, I would buy my own account there, and I believe you have a direct link to that as well, so leadpages.net account normally costs between $40.00 and $50.00 a month. It’s not very expensive. What I would do is I’d set up a landing page, and on that landing page I would have a free offer. In my case as a coach, what I would offer is a free coaching session on X, Y, or Z. So I had a client a while back that I told this to and his free offer, he was an NLP coach for golfers, and his free offer was three mindset tricks to increase your drive 40 to 60 yards in the next 60 minutes, book in your free coaching session. So a very concise, very powerful offer, and if you’re a golfer you’re going to want how to increase your drive or how to reduce your putting. What I would do then is I’d set up Facebook ads and I would drive traffic direct to that landing page. Now everybody that signs up for a free session, I would give them their free session, and then sell them at the end into a high end coaching session.

So as an example, one of our clients, the guy called Roberto that did this same strategy, he spent $300.00, he got about 57 applications for a free coaching session as a result of that, and from there he got 15 clients, and these are high value clients. I believe they’re all paying him $1,100.00 plus per client, so he did very well with that one. Now if you add up the total expenses, you’re paying about $30.00 to $40.00 just for lead pages, you’re spending about $200.00 to $300.00 on ads, and $20.00 on Skype credit for the free sessions, and at the very worst I would expect to bring in one to two high end coaching clients. Now these are $1,000.00 plus coaching clients. What I would do then is I would just take this money, reinvest it, and keep on repeating the cycle growing my capital base. Once I had a solid capital base, then I would start pivoting onto online products and things like that.

John: Fire Nation, the recipe for success has been laid out. It really can be that simple, just take action. And Sai, let’s end today on fire, brother, with you sharing a parting piece of guidance. The best way we can connect with you, then we’ll say goodbye.

Sai Blackbyrn: Absolutely John, and when I was working through exactly what I would do in a brand new world with $500.00, I thought well, it’s all well and good telling your audience that you’d just offer a free session and set up Facebook ads. A lot of them may not have the mentorship or may not know how to set these things up. So what I’ve done is I’ve created a series of reports. One which will teach you how to create the perfect Facebook page, how to create a high converting landing page which will turn clicks into clients, and how to create the perfect Facebook ad, and this is a derivative of the amount of money that I’ve spent on ads over the last three years. So I would be more than happy to give it to your audience if they find it valuable. All you have to do is email me at my business email which is sai@doubleyourdatabase.com, and just send, in the subject line, “Please send me the reports, Fire Nation.” Once you send that to me, I’ll get that straight back to you to make sure that you’re ready to implement anything that we’ve talked about today.

John: Wow. Fire Nation, that’s an offer and a half and Sai, end with a parting piece of guidance.

Sai Blackbyrn: Be relentless, because at the end of the day, if you give up on your dreams, if you give up on what it is that you are passionate about, it’s not you that will suffer, it’s me, because at the end of the day, if you give up, I will never get to see your wisdom, I will never get to see your gifts, I will never get to see what it is that you have to bring to the world. The world is dependent on you being relentless and going through the hard times, going through times which are not necessarily what you envisioned, but at the end of it, you will prevail. You will succeed beyond your wildest expectations, but it requires you to be relentless no matter what comes about as an entrepreneur, as a coach.

John: Fire Nation, you’re the average of the five people you spend the most time with, and you’ve been hanging out with Sai B. and JL D. today, so keep up the heat and head over to eofire.com. Just type Sai in the search bar. His show notes page will pop right up, and Sai, I just want to thank you for sharing your journey with Fire Nation today, for your amazing gift which Fire Nation, take advantage of. Sai@doubleyourdatabase.com, in the subject line write, “Please send me the reports – Fire Nation.” Take advantage of that. We’re going to be linking it up in the show notes page, and Sai for that, and for everything we’ve talked about today, we salute you, and we’ll catch you on the flip side.

Sai Blackbyrn: It’s been an honor John. Thank you so much. I’ll speak to you soon.