John Lee Dumas: What’s shaking, Fire Nation? JLD here with an AUDIOMASTERCLASS on 3 Strategies to Start Finishing What Matters Most. To drop these Value Bombs, I have Charlie Gilkey on the mic. He helps people start finishing what matters most as the founder of Productive Flourishing and the author of two books, the latest being Start Finishing: How to Go From Idea to Done.

And Fire Nation, we’re gonna talk about why people don’t actually work on the ideas and projects that light them up the most, what you should do when others don’t believe in your ideas or projects, and how you can get your project unstuck and going again, and so much more, when we get back from thanking our sponsors

Charlie, say, what’s up to Fire Nation, and share something interesting about yourself that most people don’t know.

Charlie Gilkey: What’s up, Fire Nation? What most people don’t know is that over the last three months, I’ve lost 25 pounds, man.

John Lee Dumas: Whoa.

Charlie Gilkey: I had to get after it. Yeah, I packed on some extra weight over the years. And then, a book will make you add some additional weight. And so, I was like you know, I’ve got to take this seriously. So, I got after it.

John Lee Dumas: What would you say is the biggest reason that you’ve lost the weight?

Charlie Gilkey: Diet, bar none. I went on a pretty stringent Paleo diet, which is really good for my body. But the thing is, bros, you can’t out-train a bad diet. You just can’t. And so, I was like, no matter what I do, I’ve got to fix that. And I laid on some – I hired a personal trainer, but bar none, the diet.

John Lee Dumas: Can’t out-train a bad diet. Another way to put this is, you can’t out-exercise your mouth, Fire Nation.

Charlie Gilkey: Truth, it’s the straight truth, man. And that’s brilliant.

John Lee Dumas: And I’ve even had virtual trainers. It’s so key, Fire Nation. I’ve had Jeff working me out four days a week for years now. And yes, he’s on video on Zoom. But man, he still yells at me. He still gets in my form and action. He still makes sure that I am pushing it to the limit. That accountability is absolutely key. And guess what, Fire Nation? Accountability also helps you finish what matters most. And that’s what we’re talking about today, the three strategies to start finishing what matters most. So, I have brought Charlie on the mic because he has obviously got his book, Start Finishing, on the shelves right now.

So, let’s just dive into why don’t people work on ideas and projects that most light them up, Charlie?

Charlie Gilkey: You know that’s really interesting. And it’s counterintuitive, because the more that something matters to you, the more you’ll thrash with it. Because think about it, bro, like no one has an existential crisis over taking the garbage out or doing the dishes. We don’t get really worked up in knots about that. But when it really matters, like that book you want to write, that business you want to start, that relationship that you want to take further, all those things are things that actually make it harder to do the things that most fire you up.

And unfortunately, I think our wiring is the opposite. We think that if it lights us up, we will want to do it more. And in some ways, that’s true. But when it comes time to actually taking those steps, we don’t do it. And so, I think starting with that is one place that’s helpful for a lot of people. And the other thing about it is, as soon as you start doing that work, the thrashing that I just mentioned, which is that meta flailing, that sort of you’re working around the project, but not really pushing it forward. You’re like that rocking chair that does a lot of motion but never gets anywhere. That’s thrashing.

When you do that, it’s really one of those things where many people, again, take that as a sign that they’re working on the wrong thing. They see those challenges. They see that emotional sort of process and flailing that they’re going through as something wrong, but that’s just part of the process. And so, anything that’s really worth doing is 1) Worth doing bad in the beginning, but it’s also worth going through those hard parts.

John Lee Dumas: I love that visual. Fire Nation, think about it. Are you a rocking chair? A lot of motion, but not getting anywhere. You’re just there, rocking back and forth like yes, there’s things that are happening. Motion’s happening. You’re “busy,” but are you producing the right content?

Are you actually getting somewhere? Are you actually working on the ideas and the projects that fire you up? Now, prioritizing projects is something that a lot of people struggle with. And then, once they prioritize them, then it’s still a matter of taking the next step and actually getting them done. So, how can we first off, get better at prioritizing, and secondly, actually get those things done?

Charlie Gilkey: Well, the first thing to think about is the more priorities you have, the less weighted each priority is. And so, if you have too many priorities, you actually have none. And so, the first thing that you’ve got to do when you prioritize, and I think this sounds obvious, John, but so many people start with a list of 17 different priorities and then try to figure it out. But really getting clear that usually there are three to five things that really matter the most.

And focus on those and go through that sort of process where you have to understand that your reach will always exceed your grasp. You will never be able to do all the things you think you might want to do. And that’s just part of being human. But when you accept that, you can get down to that three to five. I call it the three-to-five projects rule, John. And it’s really a much more nerdy way of thinking. So, the longer version is no more than five active projects at any given time perspective.

So, let me unpack that just a little bit. No more than five active projects. Active projects are the ones that you’re actually pushing for. You’re working them. They’re on your virtual or physical desktop. You’re touching them on a daily basis. Per time perspective, just it gets easier when you think, I’ve got no more than five week-size projects that I can push forward this week. And people are like ah, there is no way that I can do that. But when you really look down to what people actually get done, unless you’re John Lee Dumas, you’re not doing more than three to five anyway.

When you really look at the end of the week at things that matter most, you might push five significant projects forward at that time slice. And if we zoom up to the monthly perspective, the same sort of thing. We just look at how those projects are contained, how those weekly-sized projects are contained in the month-sized projects, and so on. And once you get better at that and choosing from the beginning, at the end of the week, these are the five projects that I want to have made significant progress on, it’s easier because it lets you filter out everything that doesn’t matter.

And so, you put the work at the beginning rather than putting the work every damn day where you’re trying to figure out, what am I going to do today or at the end of the day, what should I have done. You just make those tougher calls at the beginning. And actually, once you give yourself that space to do it, it makes pushing those projects to done a lot better.

Now, I want to pause here because what I like people to think about is momentum here. If you finish three significant, worthy projects a week and you do that every week, you will rack up so many more wins than what most people achieve most months anyway. And so, people, I think, tend to look at wow, five projects this week, that doesn’t get me very far. It’s not the week, it’s stacking those bricks week after week and seeing those results.

And that’s how you’re just going to 1) Beat yourself, but you’ll also start laughing at other people who are still flailing and trying to figure out which of the 17 things that they think are priorities they are actually going to do.

John Lee Dumas: Fire Nation, let’s talk about this for a second. If you’re prioritizing everything, or 17 things, or 24 things, you’re prioritizing nothing. Three to five is the max. And Charlie, as you said, no more than five active projects at any given time. We’re on the exact same page. When I created the Mastery Journal – four focus sessions. That’s all I give you any given day. If you follow the process of the Mastery Journal about being productive, disciplined, and focused – four focus sessions.

And if you are taking those four focus sessions and you are diving in to four specific tasks that you want to get done, and sometimes, you’re gonna use two or three of those focus sessions for just one task because it’s the compound effect of actually completing projects. You know that person that has 74 tabs open on their desktop – guess what? They’re not completing anything on those tabs. But if you just have one, two, three, four, five tabs open and your goal is to just get that done today, you’re gonna win. The compound effect is gonna work one percent better. The slight edge, it’s all real, Fire Nation

So, what should we do when others don’t believe in our projects or ideas? We have these ideas. We’re gonna keep it to three to five. We’re listening to John and Charlie, but everybody else is just like, no, that’s just – that’s not gonna work, bro. That’s just not gonna happen. What do we do then?

Charlie Gilkey: Well, I think you want to look at those people who don’t believe in it into two different camps. So, one are the naysayers. And the naysayers are those people who are mostly what you just said there, John. They’re like no, it’s not gonna work. You don’t have what it takes. You’re not ready. And so on and so forth.

Now, the thing about a true naysayer is they’re much like you know, like what Taylor Swift said about haters. Haters gonna hate. They are just going to do that. They’re invested in that in different ways. You’re not ever going to convince them or assuage them that what you’re doing is important.

So, stop. Just straight up limit contact. Don’t talk about the project. Do your thing. Put some points on the board. And if they really needed to see some points on the board to believe in you, then they will. But if they are going to be haters, they are going to look at your points and not care anyway. You’re fundamentally focusing on the wrong thing. So, those are the naysayers.

Derailers are different, bro, because derailers are those well-meaning people that once you talk to them, they want to have that sort of “helpful suggestion” or they want to do something that makes you feel worse. Every time you talk to a derailer with your project, you feel worse. And the hard thing is sometimes the people you love the most and the people that you’re closest to can be derailers.

So, with derailers, it’s not the complete avoidance that I just mentioned with naysayers. It’s actually figuring out strategically how and where you’re going to engage with them so that you actually can at least not have this negative force that you’re pushing against every day because your project, if it really matters to you, it’s gonna be hard enough. And then, you have just the general pressures of life.

You don’t need to add this additional sort of weight of naysayers and derailers on top of it. But they are different. And I think too many people try too long to convince naysayers to get on their side and fundamentally don’t. And then, they spend too much time caught up in derailers.

But what I really want people to focus on are your yaysayers. These are those people, John, who, once you start talking about it, they believe in you. They have your back. When you’re talking about them, they’re like, of course, you should do that. I’ve been waiting on you to do that. You want to focus on those naysayers. And as you start building – I don't know how much time we have here. But there are four types of people that I like people to put in their orbit around projects and their work.

John Lee Dumas: Yeah, let’s run through it. Let’s do it.

Charlie Gilkey: Good. So, there are guides, which are people who have walked the road a little bit longer than you. They are your Yoda, as it were. They’re not gonna work on the project with you, but they’re gonna be over there saying cryptic things like, use the Force, or be yourself. It’s something that never makes sense in the moment, but you understand it later. So, those are your guides.

The second are your peers. And these are the people that are sort of at your shoulder, they are shoulder-to-shoulder with you, pushing you forward. These might be your mastermind buddies, your co-coaches, those friends and people in your orbit that really light you up, but they’re still not in the project.

Third are your supporters, which are the people in the project working with you, pushing it. Now, what I didn’t mention earlier is a project doesn’t necessarily have to be work focused. In my definition, a project is anything that takes time, energy, and attention to complete. Which means all those life projects that you’re not getting to, one of the reasons you’re not getting to them is because they are still ideas, we don’t do ideas, we do projects, and because you probably attached more weight on work projects than life projects.

And so, I’m throwing that in there because when you think about who’s in your supporter list, it could be your partner. It could be the neighbor kids who watch your kids and animals so you can focus during those focus blocks we just talked about and get some stuff done.

And then, the fourth kind of person in here –and this is super critical, John – are your beneficiaries. Who will be better off when you finish your project? How will their world be better? What will they be able to do because you complete that project? And what’s super important about your beneficiaries is 1) Whenever you get stuck, you have a real person you can reach out to and say, hey, I need some guidance here. I am wanting to bounce some things off of you.

Is what I’m doing working? And you get that real feedback as opposed to some random avatar out there, some 45-year-old soccer mom in Indiana who you can’t reach out to. That’s not very useful.

But the second thing is, it makes it really real that there is that particular person that you know that if you don’t do your work, their life is worse off. When you want to quit, you could think man, what about John? What about Sally? What about Henry? If I don’t do this work, they’re not better off. And sometimes, John, that’s just the additional fuel that you need to get out of whatever head trash you’ve got going on, to get out of whatever stuff that’s got you stuck.

You say, you know what? They’re there, and I’m here to take care of them. I’m here to create this thing for them. And I’m not gonna let go, even if I’m able to give up on myself, I’m not giving up on them. And I’m gonna see this through.

John Lee Dumas: Fire Nation, a lot to unpack here, but I’m just gonna burn through it. Haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. Focus on the yaysayers. I love that phrase, focus on the yaysayers. And what were those four? Guides, peers, supporters, beneficiaries. And Fire Nation, we have so much fire coming. So many Value Bombs when we get back from thanking our sponsors.

So, Charlie, we’re back. And the reality is, we all get stuck at some point, on projects that we’re working on. How can we get our project unstuck and going again?

Charlie Gilkey: See, all projects are not stuck equally. In terms of there are three major ways that projects get stuck. The first is the cascade. The second is the logjam. And the third is the tar pit. So, I’ll go through each one of these. John, I’m laughing to myself here because if it sounds like I’m going through military frameworks, like here’s the three things, here’s the four things – we both share that background. And that’s just the way that we think. So, three different types of ways the project gets stuck.

Cascades – cascades are what they sound like. It’s when one project gets behind that creates other projects getting behind. And then, you spend more time trying to coordinate all the projects getting behind and talking to people. But you’re not actually getting the work done. You’re just in this slippery cascade scenario. And so, to handle a cascade, you’ve got to do two things. And you’ve got to do them simultaneously, which is difficult.

One is, you’ve got to stop taking on new projects. You’ve just got to go, I can’t do any more because you add another one, it’s just gonna add to the cascade. And two, you have to start thinking about the ones that you can get off the plate the quickest on the end. So, you’ve got to work on the front end, meaning you don’t take any more projects on.

And then, you’ve got to get like medieval on those projects on the back end to start pushing some things down because as long as you’re in the position that you are, time is working against you. You’re gonna keep having the cascade. And things are gonna keep slipping. And you’re gonna spend more time trying to keep your projects updated, trying to keep your partners updated, trying to keep your timelines updated, than if you just did the work yourself. So, that’s cascade.

The second kind is logjams. Logjams are when you have multiple types of projects that all have to get done at the same time It’s different than a cascade because the cascade is like a rolling belt where one project gets behind and the rest sort of get stacked up. A cascade is when you’re trying to push too many projects through the same opening in time, much like a stuck water hose that’s got something stuck in it and you can’t push it out.

So, similar sort of thing. If you’ve got a logjam going on, you’ve got to get at least one of those moving. And once you start getting them moving, you’ve got to dislodge. Now, it’s very similar to a cascade in that if it’s not clear, as I mentioned with the five projects rule, saying no is actually one of the superpowers to saying yes to the right things and getting stuff done.

And so, anytime that someone has a project stuck or they’ve got too many ideas going on, or they are overwhelmed, the first thing I’m gonna do as a coach is just go and start figuring all of the no’s that we can say today, tomorrow, next week, so that we can say yes to the things that they’re stuck on. That’s the problem, we say yes to too many things and end up in this position where we have – we’re carrying way too much. So, logjams, you just have to think of that visual where you’ve got four deadlines. They’re all due on Friday. You can’t do them all. You know you can’t do them all.

That’s where you start deconflicting. What can be kicked into next week? What can just be dropped? What can be renegotiated so that you can focus on those projects going through the pipeline? What we didn’t mention earlier about the five projects rule, John, is that I really like – obviously, I use a lot of visual and physical metaphors because it helps us get out of our heads and see what’s going on. Many of us are just walking around with like these huge rucksacks full of just weight of stuff we’re never going to use and we’re never gonna do anything with. And it’s in the way of those few things that we actually are going to do.

Carrying around that rucksack with all the stuff in it, it does you no good. Project load does you no good. Project throughput – i.e., finishing more things – is what counts. Those who finish, win. Those who carry, are just tired. So, when I’m dealing with the logjams especially, you’ve got one of those things where you’re trying to get too many things going through the hole at the wrong time. It’s not going to work.

The last one is the tar pit. And we all know the tar pit when we talk about that project for like you bring it back up. You have to fight. You have to figure out where it’s going on. It’s something emotionally heavy. You tug on it a little bit and it doesn’t come out. It’s still stuck. And as soon as you let that mud go, it starts sinking again, back in that tar pit. And then, you have to pull it out over and over again.

Now, the thing about tar pits is 1) You’re either really scared of that project and every time you get in there, it overwhelms you. And you think that some day in the future, you’re gonna be less overwhelmed and scared about the project, which is unlikely. Or at some core, and it may be two or three levels deep, you don’t want to do that project.

Because think about it, John. We don’t need an accountability system to eat ice cream or whatever your favorite dessert it. We don’t need coaches to be like, so today, you’re gonna eat a scoop of ice cream or you’re gonna have three cookies. We actually need it for the opposite. The things that we love to do, the things that we’re fired up to do, even when they scare us, we’re much more likely to do. So, if a project keeps falling and getting stuck in that tar pit, and you’ve been looking at the damn project for two or three years – and everyone knows what I’m talking about. It’s in the tar pit.

What you really need to start answering is not necessarily what steps you need to take to get that unstuck, but you really need to go into what is it about this project that scares me, or what is it about this project that is really dissonant with me that deep down I don't want to do it.

John Lee Dumas: Fire Nation, this process, very militaristic. Let’s go through it real quick. The cascade, it’s a very slippery slope. No new projects and take care of that low-hanging fruit, those things that you can just do real quick, to get those things off the plate. And again, no new projects.

The logjam, I love how you put that. Saying no is a superpower. It literally is a superpower, Fire Nation, because remember, when you say yes to one thing, you’re saying no to everything else you could be saying yes to, or in this case, all you could be accomplishing in this world.

And then the tar pit, just sinking into that tar pit, that pure overwhelm. You need to identify what scares you or just doesn’t really jive with you, Fire Nation. Those are the key things going through that. And the reality is this: We all have past failures. So, what should we do if we’re carrying the baggage of those past failures?

Charlie Gilkey: Part of it is understanding that failure is not a character trait. It’s not something that it says a whole lot about you. And I think, unfortunately, people apply momentary failures in time to who they are as a person. And we end up with this head trash and these negative stories about who we are that we carry forward with us.

And sometimes it’s super deep, John. So, obviously, most of the things we’re talking about, when we pull them up to the surface and really talk about them, they always sound absurd because people are like no, I don't think I’m a failure, but when you look at how they’re making decisions, what they’re scared of, what they’re trying to prevent – what they’re trying to prevent is them instantiating their belief of them being a failure.

So, first off is just to recognize failure is not a character trait. It’s something that happened in the past. The second thing is, failure is always a sign of misalignment. You either at that particular time didn’t have the competencies that you needed. Maybe you didn’t have the right people in your success pack. Maybe you didn’t give yourself enough time. Maybe you didn’t invest enough.

There are all of these sorts of things that were a misalignment in that project at some future thing. It doesn’t mean that your current project is going to be in misalignment, and when you separate a temporary failure from your identity and who you are as a person, you can look and say honestly what led to that failure. In the Army, we call these after-action reviews or AARs. Too many people don’t do AARs when they have a setback or failure to really figure out what happened. So, they keep doing the same things over and over again and getting the same result.

Just a quick pro tip here. When you start doing AARs, the best thing you can do is do AARs over places where you had a huge success.

John Lee Dumas: Ooh, I like that, yeah.

Charlie Gilkey: Because we often are like oh, that didn’t work out. Let’s figure it out. But we very rarely say like man, that was a smash hit. What made it a smash hit? It’s this weird thing, John. I’m gonna pause here for a second because in the work that I’ve done with people, the pattern that I’ve seen is that when there’s a really big success, a lot of times, people will say, well, it’s luck, or there are things that are outside of my control, or all sorts of things that displaces that success from them into externalities.

But when there’s a failure, they look at their own internal capacities. And they say well, it’s because I did this, and it’s because I did that. And we have this huge disparity between how we look at these situations. So, it seems to me that if you want to replicate success, you take those successes that you have and you figure out what made that happen, and you do more of that. And if you want to avoid failure, you look at what made the failures and you’re both looking at internal and external causes.

And so, just be super careful whenever you’re thinking about failures and success, Fire Nation, because I want you to own your success as much as – well, actually, I want you to own your success more than you own the failures because the more that you own the successes, the more that you can create more.

So, think about – when you’re trying to shake the history of failure, think about just the fact that’s it’s misalignment that was a place in time. And think going forward, what do I need to do to improve, to add, to keep, to drop, to make this project successful? Because every new project is that chance to win.

John Lee Dumas: Charlie, there are just certain tasks that we all dread. But these tasks can, and they very well likely may be critical to our success. So, we just have to do them. How do we get motivated to do work that we’re dreading?

Charlie Gilkey: Yeah, I call these frogs. And I take that way back to Mark Twain, where it’s like, this sort of statement is, if you have to swallow a frog first – if you have to swallow a frog today, swallow it first thing in the morning. And if you have to swallow two frogs, swallow the bigger one first. And so, I just sort of picked up on that.

And those are what I call tasks and projects that are frogs. For instance, I hate phone calls, man. I will put off a three-minute phone call for like four days. And I’ll do way more work trying to avoid doing that three-minute phone call than if I just did the three-minute call. So, it’s a frog. I know it’s a frog.

The thing about frogs is, stop believing that there is gonna be some point in the future where you’re actually gonna want to do that thing. You’re not. If you see a frog, it’s going to be a frog when you see it, and it’s gonna be a frog as long as it stays on your to-do list. And it’s gonna get harrier, and bigger, and warty-er the longer it sits there because then you start adding your story about procrastination and putting it off, and how much you hate it, too.

So, I think there are two strategies. There is one, sort of the Mark Twain strategy that I mentioned before whereas when you see the frog, jump on it first thing. Well, I’ll say three strategies. The second one would be proactively seek out those frogs that are growing and try to get one done a day. One thing that you dread, just get it done. Don’t let it get hairy. Don’t let it get warty.

And the third way you might have to do this is sandwich the frog between things that you actually like to do. So, if there are those tasks that you really just love getting into those tasks and projects, you do that a little bit. Then you slide a frog in there. And then you do the stuff on the back side.

You can use a little bit of looking forward to the future and just understanding that whatever that thing is, it’s not the totality of your work. It’s not gonna be something that hangs out with you for long. It’s just gonna be something you need to do and drive forward. But the thing about it is, and I normally don’t say this, John, but I’m gonna say this for Fire Nation. Just understand that there are those things that you don’t like to do. And it says nothing about your work. Don’t create a whole story about it. Just get it done.

And the reason I’m saying this, John, is because so many people are like well, there is this thing I don’t like to do. Maybe it says something about my passions or my interests or my goals. No, it’s just this thing that you’ve got to do. Don’t add so much story to it because I like to talk about the dread-to-work ratio here, John, which is super funny because there are some tasks that you dread so much, but the amount of work is actually not that much.

And so, what we do a lot of times, we start adding all this story to the work we don’t do. And whether we’re living the forty-hour workweek or whether we’re aligned with our passion, is we just add more dread and more story on top of the work. But the work is still not getting done. No matter what you do, no matter how on fire you are, there are going to be aspects of your work that you just don’t like to do.

Accept that. Don’t make a big story about it. Jump on it as soon as possible. If you’re in the position in your business or life where you can delegate it to somebody else, then what you do is don’t delegate something that you dread to someone else who’s gonna dread it.

Do what I like to call smart sourcing. Find a person who loves to do that thing that you’re dreading. And there always is a person who loves to do that thing that you’re dreading. And then, let them do that thing that they want to do as opposed to just passing this thing along and everyone hates doing the task. Don’t spread the hate and discontent. Find people around you who love to do the things that you don’t. And you’re just gonna find far more ease and flow in your work and your ability to let it go.

John Lee Dumas: The dread-to-work ratio. Think about that, Fire Nation. And there is a whole book around this concept, Eat That Frog! by Brian Tracy. Just eat it. Swallow it. Just get it down, get it done, move on. And, Charlie, you’ve dropped a ton of Value Bombs. You have a lot of cool things going on right not. So, break down a little bit more about what you have going on with your book, how Fire Nation can connect with that and with everything that you have going on in this world. And then, we’ll say goodbye.

Charlie Gilkey: Great. Thanks for the opportunity. My book, Start Finishing: How to Go From Idea to Done, publishes on 9/24/19. You can get it everywhere – Amazon, Book Depository, Barnes & Noble, wherever you want to get a book, it’s going to be there.

We have some cool bonus offers. If you want to get it early, before 9/24, then you can go to Start Finishing Book.com and you’ll see all the deets. That’s the big thing we’ve got going right now. I’m super pumped about it because what I’ve seen, John, is that the more people start finishing the stuff that matters, the more they find their success, but more importantly than that, the more they find their happiness and they set themselves up to thrive.

John Lee Dumas: Value Bombs galore. And Fire Nation, you’re the average of the five people you spend the most time with. You’ve been hanging out with a couple of military boys, CG and JLD today. So, keep up the heat and head over to eofire.com. Type Charlie in the search bar. He’s been on the show a few times, so all of his episodes will pop right up. They are all great. Listen to them all. And also, in the show notes we’ll have links to everything, including Start Finishing Book.com. So, definitely go check that out. Or if you’re listening to this after 9/24, your favorite bookstore will already have it on the shelves.

Charlie, thank you, brother, for sharing your truth with Fire Nation today. For that, we salute you. And we’ll catch you on the flip side.

Charlie Gilkey: Thanks for having me.