0 (2s):
Boom. Shake the room. Fire Nation. JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs On Fire brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. With great shows like Content Is Profit. Today, we'll be breaking down audience building versus community building, the important difference to drop these value bombs. I have brought Pat Flynn and Matthew Garland into the EOFire Studios. Pat is a father, husband, entrepreneur and he is based in San Diego. He's a keynote speaker, Wall Street Journal, best-selling author, Techstar Advisor, YouTuber with over 150 million views and hosts of the SPI podcast. Matt is an online entrepreneur with over 10 years of experience in three exit to date. Today he serves as the CEO of SPI Media.

0 (44s):
He's also an advisor and investor in creator focused tech startups. In today's foundation, we'll talk about staying alive over a decade on the Internet's. What's different now than it used to be back in the day? How to evolve in the new market norms and so much more. We have a lot of great stuff coming up. Fire Nation, as soon as we get back from thanking our sponsors. Business Made Simple hosted by Donald Miller is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals, business made simple takes the mystery out of growing your business with episodes like how to get out of your day-to-day operations without crashing your business. Listen to Business Made Simple. Wherever you get your podcasts, did you know that most leaders waste up to 70% of their time on tasks they shouldn't be doing in the first place?

0 (1m 30s):
It's time to delegate those routine tasks to a BELAY VA. Learn how to make the most of your time and maximize your results today. Text Fire, that's FIRE 2 5 5 1 2 3 to download your free guide to a productive work week. Pat Matt, say What's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful. And we'll start with Pat that most people disagree with.

1 (1m 57s):
Yeah, I would say a lot of people who start businesses would disagree that it is actually simple. It starting a successful business is actually a simple thing. It's not easy, but it's simple. Meaning we often overcomplicate things. We think it's a lot harder than it actually is. When you break things down like you do JLD and you've done for years for people as, as do the guests that come on your show. You start to hear that it's quite simple, right? Help people serve them, get paid for that. And for whatever reason we always try to overcomplicate that really

0 (2m 32s):
Matt, try tot that.

2 (2m 33s):
I'll try. I will shoot with that. Reinvention is required to remain successful cuz it's easy enough perhaps, or simple enough to Pat's point to maybe be successful once, right? Kind of have a moment. But to keep that going, to maintain that level of success, to continue to serve and expand requires you to think critically and adapt. And with those of us online, my gosh, like the speed of the internet is changing like so fast fashion than ever arguably. So you have to think critically about your model, your approach, the value you're delivering, and be willing to adapt and reinvent yourself along the way.

0 (3m 9s):
Hmm, good job. And you couldn't be more right? And I mean a topical topic on that right now is just how AI just seems to be taking over everything and the speed of how that's growing and just evolving is absolutely nuts. And Fire Nation, as I mentioned in the intro, we're talking today about audience building versus community building. The important difference, and Pat, this is literally incredible to say out loud, but SPIs been in business since 2008. That's over 15 years. Dude. Dude,

1 (3m 42s):
Talk to us. I'm so old.

0 (3m 44s):
I mean, you look amazing and I wanna know how we as business owners can stay alive for well over a decade on the internet.

1 (3m 54s):
Yeah. Grow beard cuz it covers all the wrinkles. That's, that's my secret. No, I mean it's true and it speaks to exactly what Matt said. You gotta adapt. But I think it kind of actually plays into what I had mentioned as well, which is no matter what happens with technology and how fast things change, the one thing will remain true with business and success. And that is helping people and serving them. And you know, that's always been the case with s p i since it began in 2008. It just has changed the manner by which we've done that. And in the beginning it was as you know, a blog and then I attempted a YouTube channel, didn't work really well, it worked later really well. But what really got me started is podcasting and serving through the voice and the, the medium of of, of audio.

1 (4m 36s):
But then later through books and speaking on stage, and then his social media has come in the ability to come in and, and serve people, you know, in, in a grand scale that way. And also on an individual level through dms. And then who knows what's gonna happen in the next five years. It's everything's gonna look different. But again, no matter what happens out there, if you can connect with people, be a human being and empathize with them, you can provide value and, and serve them in some way. And that that's how you stay relevant across so many years. And, and it, it definitely speaks to Matt's answer, which was way better than mine I think.

2 (5m 10s):
Oh, stop.

0 (5m 12s):
I love that for so many reasons. And Pat, as you were actually talking, I had to send you a text, which I just did. I see it with a picture because I kind of glanced up as you're talking and I just, cause I forgot about this, but right above my computer, I have this print and that print, I forget who gave it to me, but somebody sent it to me years and years and years ago. It's a print of the audio wave audio files of your and I first interview ever on Entrepreneurs on Fire back in 2012. How nuts is that number

1 (5m 44s):
One baby? I'll always be your first.

0 (5m 48s):
Oh, Matt, I you, you're not gonna be able to talk pat this time, but what do you wanna add to what Pat has shared,

2 (5m 54s):
At least in terms of our relationship, even Pat and me and our partnership, like these things are yin and yang. Like there, there's so much that, and it's a bit of a maybe departure from on the core point, but in terms of finding complimentary value in, in business and approach to serve people and think about, you know, a brand evolving for, again, like ours, as you mentioned, like 15 freaking years. That's nuts. And I wasn't a part of it from the beginning, but you know, to, to see where it is now and really always trying to show up to where people need us to be and show up where they are and show up in the way that they want, you know, us to be serving them as their needs evolve and change. I think that's kind of the magic, especially when should you have a business partner or, or you, you have someone kind of by your side.

2 (6m 37s):
I think that's kind of how Pat and I had figured out the way forward, you know, for s p I and then it speaks to community building and everything else. That's, that's on the horizon I think for online entrepreneurship, hopefully for the next decade.

0 (6m 47s):
Now, Matt, let's stay with you for this because the internet's a very different place compared to 2008 when Pat started 2012, when I started, heck even 2016 or even a couple years ago, back in 2021. Talk about what is different

2 (7m 3s):
People have a higher degree of skepticism and, and they have I think a longer tolerance for decision making. So when you think about consumer behaviors and, and consumer patterns, you know, they, they are more discerning in terms of choice because choice has exploded also, right? It's another primary factor in terms of where people can go online to get value to get help. You know, whether that's, you know, learning a new skill through an online course, right? Or, you know, interacting with a, you know, some version of a community, whether maybe that was a Facebook group once upon a time, right? To try to support networking, you know, within a given marketplace. So there's just an ex the combination of the explosion of choice and just with people's now understanding of how internet mechanics work and whatnot, there's more discernment.

2 (7m 52s):
So we have to go as creators and as business owners and providers the extra mile more to really showcase how we're unique and special, why we are really here rooted in service and value. And there's a little more, I think, of just earning trust through that process. I think it was maybe easier to earn trust, you know, in the early years of the internet. And it's, it's harder now. Pat,

0 (8m 13s):
Add to that, what matches shared on what you think is different and also what we need to do to evolve to these new market norms?

1 (8m 24s):
Yeah, I mean, so much has changed for sure from how we consume content. You know, it's changed from text to audio and now video is, is, is definitely taking over as well. The short form video wave that we're on right now with TikTok and reels and shorts and how much harder it is, it seems to hold a person's attention. And when you have a message to share and it takes a lot of time to do that, it's, it, it's very conflicting. The other thing that we're noticing permit's answer there is there, like, there's just so much like the, the ability to find information is not a problem anymore. All information you ever need is available at your fingertips in your pocket right now.

1 (9m 3s):
You could, you could just go and grab it. So for us course creators specifically, it's like, oh, well just putting things together in a course, yeah, I can make it easier to consume that info, but, but is that even enough now? And we started to notice over the years that, you know, we started launching online courses in 2017, made millions doing that. But over time we started to notice that course completion rates started to lower results started to, to become less and less and people still had the drive to succeed. That did not change. In fact, that's even higher than before I feel. But with all the choices out there and the fact that there's less time, it seems that we all have, because we're all packing every single second of, of our lives with stuff, getting results for people faster is the name of the game.

1 (9m 51s):
And so for us, we really had to look internally with how we were doing business and what was working. And yes, we were still able to sell online courses, but was that the right thing for us to do based on our goals of, in our mission, of helping our audience get closer to their goals and, and helping them now get results even faster. So this is when we started to really shift our focus from courses that solve a problem to communities that solve a problem. Because studies show, and our results show this as well as when you go through something with somebody, you're more likely to do it and finish it. It's just like going to the gym. It's much easier doing it with other people, holding each other accountable, having coaching, getting mentorship along the way, you're more likely to succeed versus just doing it on your own.

1 (10m 32s):
So we've like, we've completely revamped our business model and now we promote what we call community powered courses. And, and we just launched something which is, I would say pretty revolutionary. And it, it is for us and especially for my business and, and, and me and Matt's business compared to where it was, but you know, this kind of group teaching style with community as a part of it. You know, we still have our courses, people can go through our courses, but they, they no longer have to go through them alone. They're going with other people, they're, they're doing it in phases along with other people so they can all come across the same problems and go to get all the same answers at the same time. So really again, what this comes down to and why we've moved it this, this way, which was hard, especially because we're making less upfront but longer over a period of time.

1 (11m 20s):
It's, it's for the benefit of the audience, again, it goes back to, well, what's working right now to help people get a goal and achieve their results they want. It's, it's community And, and you know this with the Podcasters Paradise. Oh yeah, I mean all, all this, all the successful, successful podcasters who were successful, not just because they got your information, but because they were there alongside others doing it with them. And, and that's why the, the community you have has been so great and, and, and that that can do nothing but increase the loyalty you have for the brand owner as well. A a as well as just the enjoyment of going through that process versus doing it alone.

0 (11m 53s):
Fire Nation get results for your audience, focus on the results and the results you can provide them within a community feel. And we have a lot to talk about around this topic when we get back from thanking our sponsors. I remember back in 2013 when Entrepreneurs on Fire was scaling fast. And in those early days of our business, we sometimes found ourselves struggling to keep up because we couldn't find software solutions that were easy to use and that would grow with us wasting time, worrying about software that's complicated, a pain to use and that doesn't do what you needed to do is not fun or productive. So what do we wish we knew back then that we know now that a powerful all-in-one CRM platform that will accelerate your business growth is a HubSpot crm.

0 (12m 40s):
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0 (13m 23s):
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0 (14m 9s):
Pat, Matt, we are back. And Matt, I wanna start with you because community is in vogue right now. I mean it's so hot and for a good reason, but way too many entrepreneurs, they're confusing audience building with community building. Talk about this confusion.

2 (14m 28s):
Yeah. And it picks up even from what Pat was mentioning there before the break, you know, which is that it's not about information and having sort of a, you know, broadcaster distribution sort of channel, right? Like yes, email building is still really, really important. Building your list, right? That's audience building is getting someone to pay attention to you to subscribe to something and receive information right through some sort of push and and pull sort of effect. But community building, it's not really about us as the creators as much and it's not so much about the information, it's about the connective tissue that binds the people together. And that's a really important shift. Like, and it's a major shift. It might seem small but profound in terms of how we deliver value and how we are consistently showing up in cultivating progress towards, again, what Pat was saying before the break around results.

2 (15m 18s):
It's not us trying to wave magic wants ourselves anymore and trying to, you know, I I guess just manifest results for people in that way or, or teach them ourselves. It's about getting people to help them eat, help each other go through a shared learning experience. We are there as the guides, certainly we have expertise to bring to bear, but it's that connective tissue, not the nodes, you know, themselves within the network, but the connections between the nodes in the network, that's the, the real magic.

0 (15m 45s):
I love how Matt shared cultivate progress around results. And I specifically have always loved that word progress because there's a quote that I've always gone back to whenever I have kind of been thinking about what I should be focusing on. And that is success is the gradual realization of a worthy ideal. It's the progress. It's not just the realization, it's the gradual realization. It's the progress, it's the process. And it's not just any ideal. It's the worthy ideal. The ideal must be worthy. So think about that and cultivate progress around results. So Pat, most people don't know how to actually build and run a community model.

0 (16m 29s):
You do. You're a pro. You've been doing it for so long. Tell us more.

1 (16m 35s):
Yeah. And I've done it even more recently with something that I knew nothing about two years ago. And today I now have a YouTube channel about Pokemon. Yes, this is true story with not only 600,000 subscribers on YouTube, but with a community of people who will go out of their way to support this brand, to protect this brand to a point where I'm actually hosting an event this summer Wow. In Anaheim for the Pokemon community, right? We, we've done one in the past for the entrepreneurial commu community, which I've been a part of for a while. So it made sense that people would fly to San Diego to come hang out and, and be a part of that. But this is a brand new community setting up the space for the creators who are also other YouTube Pokemon people or polka tubers as we are called to, to come together and fans without spending a dime on marketing.

1 (17m 29s):
We already have over a thousand tickets sold to this event. Wow. And again, it's not because of me, it's because of the space that I've created to bring all the people who on the outside are often looked down upon, are often made fun of because they're the ones that have the nerdy cards and they're old guys now who used to play Pokemon when they were kids and they're getting into it. And then, you know, when they were kids, they were bullied because of how nerdy they were. No, no, no. This is for all of us super nerds to come together just like a comic con, right? And enjoy this common language that we have. So there's a lot of things I wanna pick apart from what I just said, right? This, this idea of, of people finding each other.

1 (18m 9s):
Actually quick story, you might have even been at this event FinCon in 2013. You may have been there, I'm not exactly sure, but I remember, and I know you do this as well, when you speak at events or go to different places, you will often rent a restaurant out. Yeah. Or a, a bar or something and just invite your people over. And that is something that I did. And we had 50 or 60 people come by for pizza and beer one night for people who were fans of s p I. And the night was awesome, went around, shook hands, took pictures, talked business with a lot of people. And by the end of the night I, I thought I had gone around and said hello to everybody cuz I wanted to make sure everybody had some time with me. And there was one woman at the end of the night who I had seen just for the first time and I felt really bad.

1 (18m 49s):
I was like, oh no. Like I didn't get to spend time with her. So on our way back to the hotel walking as a group, I go up to her and I say, Hey, Jenny was her name on her name tag. I say, Jenny, I'm so sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you earlier. Like we could chat on the walk here. I can chat with you tomorrow at the event. And she goes, we like stop. The whole group keeps going. She looks at me and she goes, pat, you know, I don't want you to take offense to this, but I didn't come to this event to see you. And I was like, whoa, okay, you said that right to me. And she was like, no, no, no. Like I I I love your podcast. I listened to it all the time, but I never, I never get a chance to meet other people like me who speak the same language all in the same spot.

1 (19m 29s):
So I just wanted to take advantage of that tonight. And I met new potential business partners. I'm gonna be working with that person as an affiliate for their product tomorrow. Like thank you Pat. This was incredible. And that's when it clicked for me. Community, like what Matt was saying, it's not even about you at all. You just happen to be the person who has the foresight, the ability, the resources even to create a safe space for these people with a common interest to come together. And these are the principles that can guide how you build your community online. And no, it doesn't have to be in-person at a restaurant or a coffee shop or even a big giant event. In the back of my book, super Fans, I talk about the idea of just bring people together online, give them a space in a YouTube live or in a Facebook group or in a circle community to come together to just, just, just be long.

1 (20m 15s):
And that's really the key word there. They feel like they belong to something and, and when they feel like they belong to something, they feel like they now want to invest in making sure that thing is great. They protect it, right? You can immediately start connecting with people there. There's so much value in that connection. It's, and, and it happens automatically if those spaces for community exist. Just like when you go to a ball game and your team hits the winning grand slam, you're high fiving, hugging, maybe even kissing people that you don't even know because you're wearing the same color ball cap, right? That's what community is really all about. And so many amazing things can happen as a result of that. Not to mention, oh now you have a group of people who are sharing openly their success stories that now you can pull to bring on your podcast to tell the stories to everybody and make people feel like they're missing out on this community that you have.

1 (21m 4s):
And then boom, they're gonna want to get in and want to pay to get access to people just like them because they can't find that anywhere else. I'm done.

0 (21m 9s):
Oh man. Just two weeks ago I went to New York City to watch the Biggies Basketball Championship in Madison Square Garden, the Mecca College basketball. And my team was having a great year. So we're at the game, I'm at a random seat cause you just gonna sign a random seat by your school. So I'm next to you know, another Providence College. I never met this guy. He's just another Providence College graduate. And not even my year, I never knew him before. By the end of that one game we were like best friends. Like we went out for drinks afterwards, we hung out, we have videos together. Like it was crazy moment cuz the community of Providence College, even though I'm 20 years removed from that school, brought us together. And Matt, what do you wanna add to what we're talking about right now?

2 (21m 52s):
Massive plus one. Everything Pat said, we should probably just stop there,

0 (21m 56s):
But

2 (21m 57s):
What I, what I would append to it for folks that are hopefully motivated, you know, by the conversation here and and to explore it, is that, you know, our strong opinion, even that spicy opinion if I may, is that this is a very good competitive advantage for the future of the internet. To be an online entrepreneur to think about building community is a competitive advantage because it's heart to do it well, to maintain community. This is, this is not easy. It's maybe simple again to back to some of the original themes that Pat had mentioned, but it's not, it's not easy, it's not passive even quite frankly, right? Like we have an entire team, a full-time team, you know, in-house employees that invest their entire day in their entire week into helping community members to do programming around our curriculum to guide them through our pathways in our all access paths specifically, right?

2 (22m 51s):
For our educational journeys to be indeed supporting them through that progress towards results, right? And if you can do that well and if you can sustain that level of engagement and that success, you're gonna be so far above and beyond what maybe someone else is able to do. And in this, again, ecosystem over this era of the internet where at least again, I see more discernment, you know, there's greater choice and people have more finite resources, time, energy dollars, right? They're gonna choose you over another choice. And that's again, a great, from a business standpoint, a pure business standpoint, a great competitive advantage.

0 (23m 28s):
Pat, bring us home with a final thought in a call to action for Fire Nation. If

1 (23m 34s):
You're not building community, you will be left behind, straight up. And it's a, the community doesn't have to be big, you can start simple. Matt and I both actually consult other businesses on, on creating their communities at this point now. And, and it's been an, an incredible ride to see just the magic that happens when you bring people together. So I want to offer a question that Tim Ferris actually taught me to use as a filter every time you try something new, perhaps in this case like building a community. And that question is as follows. I'm talking just like you right now, jd. I find that I'm like mimicking you, your

0 (24m 8s):
Totality, your diction. It is spot on right now.

1 (24m 13s):
Fire Nation. The question is, if this were simple, what would it look like? And so no, doesn't mean you set up all the things about a community and then you finally let people in. It means you have a text chat with three people and that is your community to start. And then you just connect with each other when you need help. And then you can invite more people in. Maybe it then becomes a Facebook group and then maybe from that point it becomes a circle community with a little bit more customization and control and, and, and automation involved, et cetera. So, you know, if this, if if this were simple, what would it look like? Call to action one would be to ingrain that into your own filter process for whatever it is that you're deciding to do.

1 (24m 54s):
And, and number two, get those results faster. Small quick wins for your audience go a very long way. So audit your brand. If you don't have a small quick win that you're offering your audience something that when they visit your website, they go to your webinar, they listen to your podcast, they're not getting something they can take home with them within five to 15 minutes, they're gonna move on in this short attention span world that we live in right now. Get 'em a result that fires up the reptilian part of their brain to want to continue to come back for more rewards from you. And that's how you make bigger changes by starting out small.

0 (25m 28s):
And where can Fire Nation learn more directly from you?

1 (25m 31s):
Yeah, I mean probably the best place to learn from us right now is smartpassiveincome.com/allaccess. Even just as an exercise to see like how are we rearranging the education that we have for our audience in a way that not only yes, generates more revenue, but more importantly gets probably the best kind of feedback that I've ever gotten from anything I've ever created. And, and of course it's not just me, it's Matt, and it's not just Matt as well, it's Jillian, our community director and Ashley and, and David and everybody else involved in that to make sure the community's in in a good spot. So I appreciate you allowing us to share this. Yeah. John, it's been a pleasure to be back here on the show. What, do you know what number episode this is by

0 (26m 11s):
The way? I know what number episode. So this is actually your fourth appearance on Entrepreneurs on Fire. Okay. And this is episode 3000.

1 (26m 21s):
Oh my gosh,

0 (26m 22s):
763.

1 (26m 25s):
Amazing. Congrats to you man.

0 (26m 27s):
Thanks. 10 and a half years. Just keep on cranking and Fire Nation. You're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. You've been hanging out with PF MG and JLD today, so keep up the heat. For links to everything we talked about here today, go to eofire.com, just type Pat in the search bar. This shown us page will pop right up as well as the other episodes he's been on, entrepreneurs On Fire. If you go back to episode one, you will hear two very different individuals, much younger and not as wise individuals, but we are still doing our best back then just making things happen. And Pat and Matt, I wanna say thank you for sharing your truth with Fire Nation today.

0 (27m 7s):
For that we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side. Cheers, man. Fire Nation, what can 3000 of the world's most successful entrepreneurs teach you? How about how to achieve financial freedom and fulfillment? My first traditionally published book, the Common Path to Uncommon Success, is a revolutionary 17 step roadmap that will lead you to the lifestyle you've been dreaming about. This book took me 10 years of accumulating the genius of the world's top entrepreneurs, and you can get it all in one place when you visit uncommon success book.com. I will catch you there or on the flip side, Business Made Simple hosted by Donald Miller is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals business made simple takes the mystery out of growing your business with episodes like how to get out of your day-to-day operations without crashing your business.

0 (27m 56s):
Listen to Business Made simple wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know that most leaders waste up to 70% of their time on tasks they shouldn't be doing in the first place? It's time to delegate those routine tasks to a BELAY VA. Learn how to make the most of your time and maximize your results today. Text Fire, that's FIRE to 5 5 1 2 3 to download your free guide to a Productive Work week.